(I edited this post so that my typos don't confuse more people)

So we just finished our first project shot with the HVX-200, thought I would pass along my impressions:

We shot (as usual) on a large sound stage, it was a commercial for a large conglomorate.  It was an interesting challenge in that it was a single two minute take shot stedicam with 35 actors, then compressed with speed bumps to 30 seconds.  It was a 3 day shoot, and out of all the people involved having made literally hundreds of movies and commercials, this was the first time any of us had used such a work flow.

The HVX shoots a beautiful 1080/60i image - that was the format we chose, using the film-gamma setting.  As with any camera, lighting is key, maybe particularly so with this one.  This camera needs a LOT of light, but when it has it, it's beautiful.  We used two large Fisher lights as well as multiple HMIs hitting a 90' x 40' bounce card on our 130' x 90' white painted cyclo stage.  After having done a lot of stuff with Varicam, I was impressed with the final picture!

The workflow went like this: Shoot on 2 of the P2 cards, switch them out for the next take, walk them over to an Avid Xpress Pro laptop sitting off stage, copy the files to a hard drive, erase the P2 cards, switch them out again.  In the mean time, we would conver the files to DNxHD 145 and watch them on the Xpress Pro, then occasionally take one of two external drives up to the Symphony Nitris upstairs for real editing.  In this way, we were able to have the entire spot edited and ready as a tif sequence to go to the post house for the complex CGI and other effects that were being added in.

Here were the problems:

1) The way you get an MXF file into Avid is AWFUL - this is a rush issue.  You have to close Avid (no matter which type of Avid you are working on) drag the MXF audio and video files into the AvidMediaFiles structure (if you have no such structure, open an Avid project in your resolution, in our case 1080/60i and create a title or something so Avid will create the structure for you) open avid, usually having to delete the database files before you do, open media tool, drag the MXFs to your bin, then you can work.  HOWEVER, if you are on an Xpress Pro, you can't play those 1:1 files in real time, so you have to convert them to DNxHD 145 files, which requires dragging them down to the timeline and doing a video mixdown on them, then rejoining them with their audio.  This is CRAZY!  We should be able to import an MXF file like any other (right click the bin, select import, choose your file, pick that you want it to come in as 145 or whatever, done.)

2) We wanted to work with 1:1 files on the Symphony Nitris, but after much time on the phone with Avid support, we learned that the Nitris will not currently support DVCPRO HD MXF files at 100 Mbps, only a lowly Adrenalin will.  Boy, was the guy that just paid 130 grand two weeks prior for his Nitris installation pissed!  So, it was the same process on the Nitris.

Basically, once Avid allows normal importing of MXF files across the board, it will be the future workflow for everything, I am sure.

Just wanted to get the ball rolling on that topic...

Great post. Thanks for the info!

Curious...

1. Can you not mount the P2 cards while the application is open, "Refresh Media Database" and Consolidate the media to a drive locally?

2. What is a "HD 50 MX"

3. Instead of bringing it down in to a timeline - why not use the 'Transcode' feature?

1) Why did you convert to DNxHD145 to play them on the laptop?  In 1080i (but not 720p/30 or 720p/30N) the native P2 files play back fine (single stream) in Xpro. In fact, you even get DVCProHD output on the system IEEE-1394 port. (Be sure the timeline I/O button is set to"1394").  If you effect them you have to render effects, but that is relatively fast.  Also, instead of exiting Avid did you try using File->Refresh Media Directories?  As I recall, (can't recheck cause Panasonic wouldn't let me keep the eval HVX200 I had for 3 weeks ) once the Avid MediaFiles\MX\1 directory exists prior to starting XproHD, you could copy P2 files to the directory while Xpro was running and it would automagically update (I saw an alert like "rescanning database" and after it closed, the newly copied clips were useable.)

2) "HD 50 MXF files".  What are those?  Did you mean DVCProHD MXF files (which are 100 Mbps) or are you talking about DVCPro50 standard def media files?  Also, in XPro, 1:1 and 1:1 10 bit are only for standard def (ITU-R bt.601).  I don't know about Nitris, but I think the same is true of Adrenaline.  To work in HD you would need to use DNxHD 145 (for 8-bit) or DNxHD 220 (for 10-bit) losslessly compressed (like a .zip file) HD.  And if you had the files already converted to DNxHD145, are you saying that Nitris couldn't handle them? Sorry, but I'm confused by your point 2).

The only problem I found was that Avid only supports 720P/30 DVCProHD as if it were HDV (a bug I hope is fixed in 5.2.4 or the next update).  So 720P/30 P2 clips copied to the media directory cannot be played directly (since they haven't been rendered to HDV).  So you have to transcode those files to DNxHD to play them back from within XPro.  But all other modes (720P/24 and 720P/24N with and without under-/over-cranking, plus all HVX200 1080 formats and frame rates) played from native P2 files on my system without any trancoding, rendering or converting.  (And still do - I still have all the P2 originated DVCProHD clips on my system).  So I think your initial playback and media database loading issues come from someplace other than XproHD - assuming you are using version 5.2.3.

 

To answer your questions:

Dom -

1. Can you not mount the P2 cards while the application is open, "Refresh Media Database" and Consolidate the media to a drive locally?

I wish, but alas, no.  At least not in our case, on either Pro or Nitris.

2. What is a "HD 50 MX"

Oops, what I meant to say was DVCPRO HD MXF files at 100 Mbps, not 50.  That will probably confuse everyone.

3. Instead of bringing it down in to a timeline - why not use the 'Transcode' feature?

Good question, I will try that with some left over footage, but still, we should be able to simply import and select our transcode at that point rather than all of the rigamarole.

WMCole -

1) Why did you convert to DNxHD145 to play them on the laptop?  In 1080i (but not 720p/30 or 720p/30N) the native P2 files play back fine (single stream) in Xpro.

I wish that were true, but neither Pro or Nitris would play the native files without awful stutter.  Once transcoded they played like lightning.  At least in our case.

Also, instead of exiting Avid did you try using File->Refresh Media Directories?  As I recall, (can't recheck cause Panasonic wouldn't let me keep the eval HVX200 I had for 3 weeks ">) once the Avid MediaFiles\MX\1 directory exists prior to starting XproHD, you could copy P2 files to the directory while Xpro was running and it would automagically update (I saw an alert like "rescanning database" and after it closed, the newly copied clips were useable.)

Not in our case, but I sure wish it would do that.  In fact, most of the time neither Pro nor Nitris could even see the files unless we deleted and rebuilt the database files.

2) "HD 50 MXF files".  What are those?  Did you mean DVCProHD MXF files (which are 100 Mbps)?

Yes, I was thinking faster than I was typing, sorry for that.

Also, in XPro, 1:1 and 1:1 10 bit are only for standard def (ITU-R bt.601).  I don't know about Nitris, but I think the same is true of Adrenaline.  To work in HD you would need to use DNxHD 145 (for 8-bit) or DNxHD 220 (for 10-bit) losslessly compressed (like a .zip file) HD.  And if you had the files already converted to DNxHD145, are you saying that Nitris couldn't handle them? Sorry, but I'm confused by your point 2).

Nitris was fine with the 145 files, but couldn't handle the untranscoded files any better than Pro, just stutter, stutter, stutter.

The only problem I found was that Avid only supports 720P/30 DVCProHD as if it were HDV (a bug I hope is fixed in 5.2.4 or the next update).  So 720P/30 P2 clips copied to the media directory cannot be played directly (since they haven't been rendered to HDV).  So you have to transcode those files to DNxHD to play them back from within XPro.  But all other modes (720P/24 and 720P/24N with and without under-/over-cranking, plus all HVX200 1080 formats and frame rates) played from native P2 files on my system without any trancoding, rendering or converting.  (And still do - I still have all the P2 originated DVCProHD clips on my system).  So I think your initial playback and media database loading issues come from someplace other than XproHD - assuming you are using version 5.2.3.

I wish I had your luck, and I am using 5.3 - always works like a champ on any SD project, never a problem before, but this HD input is a headache and without converting to 145 it's just a no go on editing.

Man, if I knew how to get Pro to let me edit non-transcoded 1080i files without stutter, I would be thrilled.  And certainly, Avid needs to standardize the addition of MXF files like all others.  But don't get me wrong, it worked and we loved it!  It just needs some fine tuning...

Just added this thread to the "Everything you need to know start here" sticky on top due to it's great level of information.. thx for that!

Menno

OK.  Let's back up a ways.  When you got the HVX200 did you install the P2 drivers on both the laptop XPro machine and the Nitris?  With them installed and running, and with the P2 hooked to a USB v2 port (v2 is a must) when you turn the HVX200 on with P2 inserted, Avid scans them and shows them as seperate media drives with the clips ready to edit.  (You can't save back to P2, but you can edit directly FROM P2 as long as your rendering, FX drive etc settings point to other drives.)

On the laptop, it could be drive throughput, but I doubt it since the DNxHD145 played back fine which is 50% more "dense" than DVCProHD100. It almost sounds as if both the laptop and Nitris system are missing a CODEC.  If, from an HD Xpro project you File->Export, select QuickTime Movie (not ref) custom settings, does the video settings offer you Avid DV 100 Codec as an option?  If not, that could be the problem.

When you created the project to host the P2 media, did you select 1080i/59.94 (or the matching 1080 frame rate you shot at) with MFX as the media type, filtering out the system drive and application drive?  (You do have a dedicated media drive, right?)  And you did set Video Input tool to the system IEEE-1394, (i.e "Host 1394" not DNA (Mojo - don't know if Nitris sports a 1394 input and if so if it handles DVCProHD codec from/to it or if the Nitiris machine also has to use the system 1394 port) and the timeline I/O gadget is set to "1394" not "DNA". In the case of XPro, it is not mandatory, but a good idea to disconnect Mojo before powering up if you are going to work with the HVX200 P2 cards and clips.  (This is especially important if the System IEE-1394 port and the one DNA hardware is connected to run off the same internal bus.)

I think you have a configuration problem on both your machines and are not experiencing problems generic to Avid UNLESS you shot 720P/30.  Then everything you report would be consistent with my experiences which I believe came from the absense of an "Avid DV 100" CODEC which supports 720P/30 (i.e. the only HD 720/30 Avid supports in Xpro at the moment seems to be HDV or DNxHD.)

 

 

Hey WMCOLE, appreciate your getting involved in this!  Responses below:

OK.  Let's back up a ways.  When you got the HVX200 did you install the P2 drivers on both the laptop XPro machine and the Nitris?

We installed the P2 drivers from go on the laptop.  We were dumping the data to had drives attached to the laptop and erasing the cards as quickly as possible so we were ready with them for another take every few takes, then running the laptops up to the Nitris, copying the data to a 3 terabyte Avid disk array.

With them installed and running, and with the P2 hooked to a USB v2 port (v2 is a must) when you turn the HVX200 on with P2 inserted, Avid scans them and shows them as seperate media drives with the clips ready to edit.  (You can't save back to P2, but you can edit directly FROM P2 as long as your rendering, FX drive etc settings point to other drives.)

We didn't use a USB v2 port, we plugged them directly into the laptop PCMCIA slot - we thought from everything we read that would be fine, maybe that was the problem, but I didn't find anything about that in any of the literature, maybe that's a good tech tip!

On the laptop, it could be drive throughput, but I doubt it since the DNxHD145 played back fine which is 50% more "dense" than DVCProHD100. It almost sounds as if both the laptop and Nitris system are missing a CODEC.  If, from an HD Xpro project you File->Export, select QuickTime Movie (not ref) custom settings, does the video settings offer you Avid DV 100 Codec as an option?  If not, that could be the problem.

Just checked, it does offer that Codec option.

When you created the project to host the P2 media, did you select 1080i/59.94 (or the matching 1080 frame rate you shot at) with MFX as the media type, filtering out the system drive and application drive?

Yes.

(You do have a dedicated media drive, right?)  And you did set Video Input tool to the system IEEE-1394, (i.e "Host 1394" not DNA (Mojo - don't know if Nitris sports a 1394 input and if so if it handles DVCProHD codec from/to it or if the Nitiris machine also has to use the system 1394 port) and the timeline I/O gadget is set to "1394" not "DNA".

Yes, yes and yes.

In the case of XPro, it is not mandatory, but a good idea to disconnect Mojo before powering up if you are going to work with the HVX200 P2 cards and clips.  (This is especially important if the System IEE-1394 port and the one DNA hardware is connected to run off the same internal bus.)

Didn't even attach the Mojo I didn't think it would help us with HD.

I think you have a configuration problem on both your machines and are not experiencing problems generic to Avid UNLESS you shot 720P/30.  Then everything you report would be consistent with my experiences which I believe came from the absense of an "Avid DV 100" CODEC which supports 720P/30 (i.e. the only HD 720/30 Avid supports in Xpro at the moment seems to be HDV or DNxHD.)

Since we have that Codec, I'm not sure what's up.  I'm sure with some digging it can be resolved.  I guess it really boils down to 2 wish list/fixes which are either on our end or Avid's:

1) Ability to import MXF files just like any other.
2) Ability to play untranscoded MXF files (at least 8 bit) with no stutter without going to DNxHD - though I think that's what DNxHD is for, right?  And since DNxHD is scalable, you can always take it back up with no perceptable loss.  (Though there is some very, very minor loss, maybe Luma?  I didn't scope it, too busy at the time.)

I think the bottom line is that this is almost the perfect work flow.  It's of course more like shooting 35 in that you can at most get a 16 minute roll with 2 8 gig cards, you can't just shoot forever at a time, but with the proliferation of HD equipment at amazing prices (the HVX we used with remote follow focus, matte box, RF video tap and everything else would retail for less than 14,000.00) the ability to start an edit in the field and move to any Avid system in post, take that file in a variety of formats for compositing and effects, I just can't see doing it any other way in the coming years.  I mean, for very little rental or investment, anyone with talent can create anything, features, commercials, whatever, and have it ready for blowup to film, HD broadcast, it's amazing.  Even though most reality shows have pared down to the likes of the DVX, I think everyone will come back up to something like this.  It may not be 10 bit 4:4:4, but it's pretty amazing for what we might consider "prosumer".

I'm stumped. 

What mfgr laptop? What were the specs (disk[s], RAM, proc and proc speed)?  Is it possible that it is RAM capacity related.  (I'm using 2 GB).

HP ZD7010us with 1.5 gigs ram, 2.66 P4.  Disks were 7200rpm 300gig firewire drives.

The Nitris had exactly the same response, and it was a brand new dual xeon HP made for the Avid with a 3 terabyte array of Avid drives.

Last year at NAB when they introduced the camera it was made clear to me at least that indeed the P2 cards can not be run of a default PCMCIA slot and that you need the USB2 reader along with it .... So it might be the problem you are experiencing... worth checking out...

Menno

I think You need a p2-driver which is free from Panasonic.

Seems you need a Type II PCMCIA slot.. maybe that is where my assumption came from

Menno

According to Your picture, there are three important notes.
1. You need a pcmcia 2 slot (it is the size of the slot).
2. which is a pc-card slot (which is the bus, 32-bit compare to pcmcia which is 16-bit)
3. You need a pc-card driver which Panasonic delivers on a cd.

Too busy to research today but that sounds about right I knew there was something different then a "normal" PCMCIA laptop slot involved ...

Menno

ps picture is a screenie from the manual of the HVX200 (page 82 i believe)